Cynthia Jur’s Kiva (E09)

Full discussion MP3 above (2 hours). The podcast is split into two, 1-hour segments below.

This podcast was recorded in late November 2015 at Cynthia Jurs' "kiva" in Santa Fe, New Mexico. Originally meant to be a recorded discussion between Charles and David Abram (philosopher/author of The Spell of the Sensuous and Becoming Animal), what arose was a round-table discussion with all of the participants. We divided the conversation into two, one-hour segments.

Part I touches on many different topics including: urgency and scarcity; biological determinism; eros, compassion, and beauty; intellectual and academic silos; our cultural legacy for future generations; complexity and simplicity; human-generated meaning vs. received meaning, and the importance of reclaiming language.

Part II is a multi-faceted discussion on the topic of indigineity, the imposition of the written word on oral culture, as well as a discussion on the metaphysics of separation.

Participants include (other than Charles):
Cynthia Jurs, David Abram, Pat McCabe (Woman Stands Shining), Lyla June Johnson, David Bacon, Elizabeth Christine, Michelle Victoria, Joanna Harcourt Smith, Jose Luis Gomez Solar, and Hugh Wheir.


  1. The thing about “the other”, about oTHERING as a corollary of sEPARATION, and sEPARATION versus uNIFICATION, I think can be viewed usefully in the light of animistic thought, where other-than-humans and humans share in culture but diverge in nature, that is there is a continuity of souls and a discontinuity of bodies (Descola), which would be the opposite of naturalism (the western ontology) where things encountered “out there” are considered to be devoid of interiority but possessing of a similar physicality. When Charles speaks of oTHERING, it isn’t just another word for objectification. It has to do with objectification though, with the fact that we consider everything and every BODY to be an object, including ourselves!! It’s all just matter, what sets ME apart is my mind. From the animist perspective, what sets someone apart is his or her mysterious body, indeed it’s what makes him or her anOTHER. So “othering” is really another symptom of the denigration of matter, and the urge for unification is the urge for healing that separation. The separation of matter from spirit, and nature from culture or vice versa.

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